difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve

Expansion Valve. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. R 134A is designed for the high demands of an automobile AC and cannot be used on refrigerators due to pressure differences. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. It didn't seem too dirty though - I don't think it is the problem, but I could be wrong. and feeds it through an expansion valve. It is usually sold under the brand name, Freon 12. It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. Replied by Rich928 on topic R12 or R134a. I have one can left, so maybe a plan can be made. gital control scheme. Since there is only about a 10% difference between R-12 and R-134a, the expansion valve being self-compensating really doesn't make that much difference. Depending on which circuit diagram fits your car (cough, no vin list exists) you have either one or two switches controlling the aux fan. I'm also thinking maybe I should go to R134 - it might work better with the right amount of oil and the correct expansion valve. In 1994 they switched from R-12 to R-134a. You do not however need to replace all the o-rings or seals for a simple conversion, it is simply a logical thing to do when and if the time comes to work or replace certain components because of age issues. Skin contact: If the R134a (liquid) comes in contact with your skin, it could cause a burn. might be due to charge or different compressor and age. Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. R134a. The car never overheats, if that has any import. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. The only mechanical differences between an R12 system and an R134a system are that R134a systems typically have larger condensers and more powerful compressors. So I probably put the highest suggested amount in to be safe. How about evacing 1 pound of refrig from the system, and then putting 1 lb of pure R12 back in? As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. They have no moving parts. R12 systems used mineral oil, but unfortunately mineral oil doesn't dissolve in R134a. Lets take you through the advantages, disadvantages, and differences of these two refrigerants a detailed comparison including R12 vs R134a performance. But I've read that these car's didn't do too well in the a/c stakes, so that might just be as good as it gets. J.Harris said: Or if you want to do it like they do in Mexico you can use propane, it's an excellent refrigerant but highly flammable. The expansion valve is designed so that the temperature of the refrigerant at the evaporator outlet must have 8 to 12F (4 to 7C) of superheat before more refrigerant is allowed to enter the evaporator. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. Its highest value is 1. The current expansion valve is FF - 1/4 - C. Is it neccesary to replace this valve? I'll report back on the aux fan on performance next. When you add fluorescent tracer dye to with the refrigerant oil it helps to track down leaks that push oil out of the system. and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. It's not just the poor performance - the cooling just stops working after a while. Condensers designed to release greater amounts of heat help to expel the greater amount of heat which R134a removes from the cars interior. . Bottom line, R134a simply doesn't cool as well as R12. Next I'll jumper the aux fan. Ensure you contact a professional mechanic to do the work for you so you dont end up incurring more costs for yourself. Could that be screwing up the systems performance?Anyway, when I installed the system, the new TXV (is that short for expansion valve?) You can buy bulk hose, and the proper fittings, then have them crimped off the vehicle.Be sure that no air bypasses the new condensor on the way to the radiator. evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. Edited: Tue July 17, 2007 at 3:25 AM by bohica2xo, I believe there is only one switch - the refrigerant switch. how to get to disney springs from boardwalk / bb dakota plaid jacket canada / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Generally the system will be initially charged with approximately 80% to 85% of the original amount of R12, using R134a. Some cars have both an engine coolant temp switch & a refrigerant temp switch, others only the refrigerant switch. It does not "pool" to any degree in a large amount anywhere. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." R134a vs R12 refrigerant? That switch should close @ 52c. I'm just trying to help you avoid headaches in the long run. Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. 3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12. And yes - expansion valves sometimes need replacing if they are sticky - but a proper AC flush should eliminate the need for a new one if it's already in good condition. We are an automotive mechanic blog that helps mechanics and car users to find the most recent and accurate technical and repair information for their cars. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. ambulance tailgate conversion For R12, its mineral oil. Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. Bookmarks: Digg; del . Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. Stability: RR12 doesnt disintegrate even under extreme operating conditions. The original rubber a/c hose lines in your car will leak out R12 through the hoses lining. To prevent refrigerant loss you should consider replacing your old hose lines with barrier type hose. Should I do the test again with the the aux fan jumpered? But some types of PAG do not mix well with the old residual R12 mineral oil left in the system components whereas ester does mix very well. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. shown for the parallel flow, aluminum condenser that is listed. When the sensor detects the refrigerant leak the sniffers lights glow and the sniffer makes a noise. I'm not sure. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. R134a has the chemical formula CF3CH2F and is known as tetrafluoroethane. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . The condenser water inlet temperature and flow rate are controlled with the use of a . R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. The safe high side pressures are determined with a PT (pressures and temperatures) chart. R-134A has a slightly lower pressure at evaporator temperatures (30-40 degrees), but R-134a also has a much higher pressure at condenser temperatures (120-150 degrees). This is an electronic tool that sucks in air through a tube and across a sensor. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. First, differences in physical properties: 1, insoluble R12 compressor oil is used (to reduce the lubricant) 2, dissolved sealing materials are used (resulting in refrigerant leakage) 3, easy to damp (so easy to internal . I used a full can of evap cleaner. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." How an A/C Expansion Valve Works. The pressure/temperature curves for R-1234yf and R-134a are very similar. If there is a resource I should read first to save you time, let me know. Hmmmm. Not going to mess up your 'do, but you can feel it. It is a haloalkane and hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) refrigerant that has thermodynamic properties, potential global warming for one hundred years, and insignificant ozone depletion. 2001-2023 Griffiths Technical Inc. All Rights Reserved. You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. Formula: (R12 Charge Specification x 0.9) - 0.25 lbs. Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. Its among the greenhouse gases and will keep adding the current problem of heat not leaving the earths atmosphere. A lower GWP alternative to R-134a had to be found and thus we have the new 1234yf. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. Hopefully after you have read this entire page you will have enough information to determine which type of refrigerant is best for you. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Since the hose is the stock hose, you cannot tell what refrigerant is inside. As per their results . 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. What is a good differential? When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. Compressor. sparkee said: Thanks for the Service Bulletin. The cost of recharging the air conditioner is between $150 to $500. And no, you cannot "drain' excess oil out. This can be very very expensive. When the temperature is reduced to-7C or below, the plants ability to cool the airdrops significantly. This is the part that controls the system pressures. You either get a system that will function well with R1234yf or get any other type. Performance doesn't seem to have improved. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Pray I can let some oil out of the compressor without losing my precious R12. The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. The reason is that the vehicles, for instance, manufactured currently configure the engine for R1234yf refrigerant, making no provision for replacement. For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. The global warming potential measures the amount of heat trapped by any gas compared to the amount of heat trapped by the same amount of carbon dioxide. We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. However, R134a is better than R12. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. Is there a difference in the expansion valve for R12 as opposed to R-134a? Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. I am ordering new parts, and planning to convert my system to R-134a. I remember I had the wrong seals and it leaked some oil, so I put some more in.Bohica - I tested the pressures. This is because R134a. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. Also, it can be used with all types of compressors. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. Your old hoses of course will not fit. Hence, let us continue to fix it. Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. CLUTCH CYCLING SWITCH. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Inhalation of vapor: Inhaling a large amount of R134a vapor can lead to drowsiness, temporary nervous system depression, and lethargy. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. Edited: Sat July 14, 2007 at 10:22 PM by fonebone. Tamb oferim en VOSC el contingut daquestes sries que no es troba doblat, com les temporades deDoctor Who de la 7 en endavant,les OVA i els especials de One Piece i molt ms. If he is not in the garage fixing challenging mechanical problems, he is writing automotive repair guides, buyers guides, and car and tools comparisons. Stay home and grill your own steaks and stir your own martini. A York oil capacity is listed as "6.5 to 9.6 ounces". The crossover point is approximately at 64F. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. R134a and R12 are both refrigerants used in vehicle air conditioning systems. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). Before we mentioned that you can add approximately 5-6 ounces of ester oil to the compressor. Please enter a password for your user account. It won't be optimal, though.On some/many valves, you can adjust them, but that might make matters worse unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!).RegardsGeorge. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Bohica, You say the drop in performance is not linear with too much oil. Quick View. It won't be optimal, though. We recently created this blog site to enable us to share our knowledge with other automotive mechanics and car owners. R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. I don't want to be chasing ghosts. Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Hi pdrayton- If you can remember the oil capacity that you found in all your research and post that, then bohica and others can have a better idea if you have too much; see if you can find that info! "Howdy, Folks!" The oil used in R12 systems is not compatible with R134a refrigerant. Is that reasonable?Vent airflow is good, I think. After the system has been tested out it should be checked for leaks. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." If you still find it difficult to use R134a in a home AC system, you can check out a comparison of R12 vs R134a fittings to know the refrigerant that best fits the AC system. Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? One thing at a time here, and slowly, the knee is not up to jumping around like I used to at the moment. If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. This is due to many facts: R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! R-12 to R-134a Conversion. Answer: OK, I'll bite. Debug the condensor (I am a computer nerd after all!)3. We ALWAYS want to know the pressure readings! If you're getting a R134a compressor, might as well finish the job - replace the receiver/dryer, flush everything else, and convert to R134a anyhow. Questions About Becoming A Professional Member? R-134a is widely believed to be the most acceptable R12 substitute. On this website we are addressing only R134a and not other suggested drop in replacements. Use strips of foam to couple the two heat exchangers if necessary.B. However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased. Refrigerators generally utilize R22, R32, or 410A-based coolants as their cooling agent. Safety: R134a is safe to use as its non-flammable and cant explode. Also, R134a cylinders are light-blue in color. GWP is a measurement of Greenhouse Gases and their effect on Global Warming. All pre-97 XJs use systems with the same basic operating principle, although the parts do change a bit. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. I don't believe it is but I had a service guy tell me it needs to be done. R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. Stopleak is also risky. There is NO reason to retrofit a vehicle to R-134a as long as the R-12 system is cooling properly and contains a normal charge of refrigerant. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. The R134a compressor has a 1/8" step in on the high side port. Inasmuch as R134a has a global warming potential thats over 1000 times more threatening than carbon dioxide, its better than R12. A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. This implies that the discharge pressure of the compressor should be moderate so it can produce the refrigerants condensation in the condenser at the atmospheric temperature. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. It cycles on off in med (or low for that matter)Gotta tell ya. The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the fabricator and impossible for the serviceman. Environmental Impact: When R134a escapes into the atmosphere, it contributes to global warming. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. ing the expansion valve, a maximum opening superheat of 7F, and a standard factory air test superheat setting. (On firewall where A/C lines go into cab.) Boiling Point: R134a refrigerants boiling point is -26.3C (-15.34F). The experimental values of C.O.P.H obtained with the R134a/ester charge were 20.2% It has already been clearly stated that R12 is a chemical that damages the earths ozone layer and shouldnt be released into the environment no matter the circumstance. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. This leads me to labor over every small decision. absorb by the evaporator to insure all liquid refrigerant entering the evaporator. and recharged with mineral oil and 2.2 lbs R12. The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. The P H and T cond,sat of the HR12 at a T oa of 40 C were higher than that of the R134a, resulting in a higher P e than that for the R134a. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . Is there a graph? You may have heard of a friend that did the job himself with borrowed equipment and 12 or 16 ounce cans of refrigerant. ThanksPaul -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a. R12 is CFC: Even though R12 is one of the most commonly used refrigerants, it is CFC. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . Yep, definately not a meat locker. This may be the source of your oil confusion. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? Since 2010, all home AC systems manufactured use a refrigerant like R134a that has zero ozone depletion potential (ODP). Is it exponential, squared? The problem with not being an expert is that you don't know what is important and what's not. A good T/C, clamped to the line & insulated gives a repeatable measurement of the tube. A Lot of the fins are bent, especially at the top. The newer valves and switches will work with both refrigerants. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Also called the orifice tube. Generally this works well for the whole system. 4.3 out of 5 stars 491. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. I put one in my old daily driver '79 Chevy tank (r-12), and it really made a difference. In no particular order, here's what I've found out regarding answering the questions posed so far:Fonebone - It is definitely an R4 compressor (they left the c off the front and the p off the end, i.e. I had to vaccum the system for 2 hours and recharge 4 oz of PAG oil plus 36 oz of 134A freon (3 cans). Yes it will work with either Refrigerant! R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. Production of R12 ceased in 1996, although it can still be reclaimed, purified, and resold, and small cans of New Old Stock R12 are still widely available on eBay and Craigslist. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts. R134a refrigerant fittings are different size. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant.

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